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 Changes to Morale

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Warmaster_John
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PostSubject: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:12 pm

There was some discussion of morale in another thread, and the point was made that it's pretty well moot in 5th ed, thanks to high Ld and special rules (like Fearless). It was suggested there to lower Ld values, but I think the issue is the special rules -- specifically Fearless and Stubborn, which form the basis of most morale oriented rules. Here's what I suggest:

Fearless: Fearless units have little fear of death, but are canny enough to know when they face certain doom.
Fearless units ignore all negative penalties to Leadership when making Morale checks. In addition, a Fearless unit that is caught by a sweeping advance is not destroyed, but suffers additional wounds as per No Retreat!

Stubborn: Stubborn units are tenacious, making it very difficult to force them from the battlefield.
Stubborn units may regroup even if below 50% or if within 6" of an enemy unit.

I know it might be a bit confusing making what is now Stubborn into Fearless (mostly), but the names fit better that way Smile
Army specific rules would need to be tweaked (such as Space Marines ATSKNF), as well.

The other suggestion would be to bring back more modifiers (like -1 for being below 50%, etc), to show the horror of war.
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:02 pm

I'd like to go with:

Fearless: A unit with this rule ignores negative Leadership modifiers for Morale checks and restrictions on testing to regroup, with the exception of unit coherency.

Stubborn: A unit with this rule automatically passes all Morale checks and Pinning tests.

If I remember the wording for No Retreat, this flip should go smoothly without requiring clarification.
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Warmaster_John
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:35 pm

That just seems like a name flip (except that *new* Fearless does more than *old*Stubborn). How you have Stubborn is exactly how Fearless works now. I was actually looking to remove any "auto-pass" morale rules, so there is always some risk of breaking.
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:38 pm

Well, see, I do like a rule for those mindless or foolishly stubborn units that never actually do run, even if it is a good idea. That said, I think it should be extremely limited. So Chaos Spawn, Death Company, Berserkers, some Imperial Fists, etc.
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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:02 pm

I like Johns Stubborn.

Fearless though I feel should give a reroll to a failed Moral or Pinning test. Confur Stubborn and the unit may not volentarily go to ground.

On a similar note. Rage should have the break forward rules and always pass LD while in combat.

This way only truly raging units are close to fearless as we know it today. Fearless and Stubborn units will still have a high chance of breaking and leaving combat but just not as much as a normal unit. An abserlute smaching in combat is going to make almost anyone run that is not stupid.
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Hellebore
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:52 pm

I don't think it's really a good idea to use the terminology as is. The term 'Fearless' doesn't conjure up images of people calmly assessing the situation to run or stay. To me anyway.

Fearless should be reserved for things that cannot feel fear or mortality. Even a daemon in realspace will 'fear' anything that can send them back to the warp. Not in a psychological way but in an angry 'damn it!' sort of way.

A necron however can't really fear anything. They, like the terminator, keep on going until they're destroyed and get teleported back for repair.

Basically most things in the game that are currently fearless should be stubborn and those things that are stubborn that don't fit with this should get their own version.

Space marines get their own psychology rules. I reckon that stubborn could be close to what atsknf is now, plus the ignoring modifiers, whilst a lesser version could be just the ignoring regrouping restrictions.

In my Varyngr codex I have several units with 'Grizzled' which is just ignoring regrouping restrictions.

Thus you could have:

Fearless: Is not affected by Morale rules
Stubborn: Ignores regrouping restrictions and ld modifiers for morale tests
Grizzled: Ignores regrouping restrictions

However I think the biggest problem with Fearless is the loss of Fear causing in the first place.

At the moment being Fearless is more of a handicap than it is an advantage. If however the game had morale tests for fear causing units, it wouldn't be so bad.

Fearless would then not be affected by fear causing units, but would also get no retreat wounds at the same time.

For ease of incorporating it into the game:

Fear: Units with the Fear rule can scare the enemy into inaction. Whenever a unit attacks an enemy that causes Fear, whether in melee or range they must take a morale test. If the fail they must reroll any successful to hit rolls (ranged and melee).

Units that cause Fear:

Any model with the Monstrous Creature Unit Type
Any model with the Daemon special rule
Any Walker Vehicle
Any Superheavy vehicle
Specific units with Special rules

If a model possesses two or more of these rules then they cause terror. A terror causing unit counts all the wounds it caused as double for determining who won the combat.

Two fear causing units fighting each other have no effect. A Terror causing unit causes Fear in a Fear causing unit.

Something like that.

This also has the added advantage of giving fear causing units some range protection. Thus you wouldn't need special rules for melee monsters to protect them from range if they cause fear and make it harder for the enemy to shoot them.

If Fearless meant more than not running from combat and taking extra wounds then it wouldn't be such a silly thing and would also be limitable to fewer units.

Leaving Stubborn and Grizzled style rules as the more common ones.

Anyway, just some ideas.

Hellebore
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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:42 pm

Another name that can be used id Iron Disiplin, or Iron Will.

I see what you are saying there. And I agree on most of it. I would love to see the return of Fear, Terror, Frenzy, Stupidity, and other Psycology.

I thing what the general idea here is that we want even the most hardened units to occasionaly break from combat and run away. Nothing should be 100% unbreakable unless it is somthing that literaly can not be broken like necrons, chaos spawns, and similar things with no sence of preservation of life.
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Lanrak
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PostSubject: Re: Changes to Morale   Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:21 am

Hi folks.
There are 2 basic ways of covering moral.
1)List seperate levels of competance and give each one a name.Then write lenthy special rules with special names detaileing how the limited interaction between a restricted set of names results in a stunted and abstracted moral system.

2) Cover all levels of competance witha numerical value .Then list modifers that adjust this numerical value up or down , to arrives at scalable and straight forward system.

Currently you have expamnded on 40ks current type 1 system.

IF look at useing type 2 for a moment.

An example.
Every unit is given a Moral Rating.
A value from 1 to 5.

Fearless 1
Elite 2
Veteran 3
Standard 4
Conscripted 5

To pass a moral check the player has to roll equal or over the Moral Rating of the effected unit.

NEGATIVE Modifiers which are added to the Moral rating.
Suffered over 25% casualties. +1
Suffered over 50 % casualties. +2
Suppressed +1
Neutralised +2

POSITIVE Modifiers which are added to the Dice Roll.
Unit in cover +1.
Unit at starting strenght +1
Leaders command value + variable
Unit is has flanks and rear covered +1

This means a FEARLESS unit auto passes moral checks UNLESS it suffers casualties and supressive effects...

Just a thought ...

TTFN
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