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 The Horror! The Horror!

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Col. Tartleton
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PostSubject: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:50 pm

Hwee Cap-toored Eet Fohr Kay-oss

"The Horror! The Horror!" -Last Words of Night Haunter

9 Legions.

Word Bearers: Undivided
Black Legion: Undivided
World Eaters: Khorne
Thousand Sons: Tzeentch
Death Guard: Nurgle
Emperor's Children: Slaanesh
Iron Warriors: Undivided
Night Lords: Undivided
Alpha Legion: Anarchy

One list.
Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:54 pm

That, in my opinion, is the easy part.

I think the more difficult part is including all of those WITH the renegades.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:01 pm

While I think it is entirely possible to roll them all into one list, my question is: Why? Why restrict ourselves? GW does so for fiscal reasons, but we're not worried about that.
I would suggest starting with a "base" list (which has typically been Black Legion up to this point, but would work well as Renegades/generic Chaos Marines), where overlapping units can me hammered out with no need for repetition later, then building on this to create the different legions.
In fairness, I might be biased toward this idea since it's how have been doing mine Smile
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Col. Tartleton
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:09 pm

I prefer one list to rule them all. It may be a thousand pages of arcane texts and dread rituals and intricate details, but Chaos is Chaos.

Edit: Actually I've thought about it, and ~10 Lists is better if we're going to flesh these guys out properly.

HQs:

Lord
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 4Leadership 10

Lieutenant
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 3Leadership 10

Sorceror Lord
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 3Leadership 10

Sorceror
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 2Leadership 10

Dark Apostle
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 4Leadership 10


[Apostles will become an option for the Legions. Every Legion has its own Cult and respective Priests that are neither Lords or Sorcerors]

There are 5 choices for Marks at the HQ level.
Champion of Chaos Undivided
Champion of Khorne
Champion of Nurgle
Champion of Tzeentch
Champion of Slaanesh

You can take a Khorne Sorceror. Each cult is different.

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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:46 pm

Lets begin with the most direct of the Legions.

The WORLD EATERS:

HQ:
Lord of Skulls (Lord)
Blooded One (Lieutenant)
Blood Priest (Dark Apostle)

Elite:
Gladiators (Chosen)
Cult Terminator (Terminators)
Slaughterers (Possessed)

Troops:
Beserkers (Assault Marines)
Warhounds (Tactical Marines)
Cultists of Khorne

Fast Attack:
Warhawks (Vanguard Marines)
Predator Tank
Land Speeder

Heavy Support:
Destroyers (Havocs)
Vindicator
Land Raider
Land Raider Spartan (Customized to carry 12 models with Terminators only taking up one space)

Daemons:
Bloodthirster (Greater Demon)
Bloodletters (Lesser Demon)
Flesh Hounds (Demon Beast)
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:30 pm

I shall riposte!

Headquarters
Prince of Rage (Demon Prince)
Warlord (Chaos Lord)
Blood Priest (Dark Apostle)
Lord of Brass (Techmarine)
Skull Surgeon (Apothecary)
Exalted Berserker (Lone Wolf)

Elites
Ravagers (Veteran Marauders)
Slaughterers (Veteran Berserkers)
Bloodkine (Possessed Berserkers)
Bloodletters (don't occupy FOC)

Troops
Marauders (CSM with MoK, close range options like flamers and meltas)
Berserkers (can be given jump packs or bikes)

Fast Attack
Warhawks (assault squad with MoK)
Warhounds (bike squadron with MoK)
Flesh Hounds (don't occupy FOC)
Razorback Squadrons
Slaughterfiend

Heavy Support
Destroyers (havocs with heavy bolters, heavy flamers, multi-meltas)
Obliterators
Berserker Dreadnought
Predator
Vindicator
Defiler
Land Raider
Land Raider Annihilator (Crusader with flamer and melta weapons)
Bloodthirster
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:45 pm

Col. Tartleton wrote:


HQs:

Lord
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 4Leadership 10

Lieutenant
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 3Leadership 10

Sorceror Lord
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 3Leadership 10

Sorceror
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 2Leadership 10

Dark Apostle
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5Attacks 4Leadership 10


[Apostles will become an option for the Legions. Every Legion has its own Cult and respective Priests that are neither Lords or Sorcerors]

Why the increase to WS 7 across the board? I have to say I'm not in favor of it, especially on "lower tier" characters, like lieutenants and sorcerers. Also, why only 2 wounds on the Lord (and the Sorcerer Lord)? Lastly, I'm not sure Dark Apostles and Sorcerer Lords should be as strong as the Chaos Lord. I know they are stronger than their loyalist counterparts, and amongst the Word Bearers Apostles often lead instead of a Lord, but I think there power should be represented some other way (like special rules). To me, the Lord should be the top dog when it comes to physical power (amongst mortal marines). To that end, I do like him having 4 Attacks -- he should be able to match a Wolf Lord.



Col. Tartleton wrote:

You can take a Khorne Sorceror. Each cult is different.

I'm gonna have to disagree, rather vehemently, on this one. I like your idea of a "blood priest", or some sort of shamanistic leader for them, but Khorne *hates* psykers and has for some time now. The World Eaters hunted down and killed all their Librarians because of this, and I imagine other Khornate warbands have as well.
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Col. Tartleton
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:53 pm

I'll respond: Essentially my design is that Marines have a base 5 for WS/BS and the best marines would have higher WS/BS so Lords have rather high BS/WS.

Secondly I'm trying to get away from "I'm important I need more wounds." Unarmored "Scout" marines have 1 wound. PA marines have 2 wounds. TDA marines have 3 wounds. Anything extra is awarded based on merit in specific instances. You will be able to have a 5 wound Chaos Lord with Nurgle. But Khorne is finesse and thus you can give him TDA for an extra wound.

A Khornate Sorceror wound not be a Librarian. I'm thinking more like an anti librarian. Tooled out for CC all his spells are Melee buffs and special wargear will make him psyker proof. It will probably be reduced to an upgrade for Princes, Lords, and Apostles in this case.

Herald of the Lost wrote:
I shall riposte!


Headquarters
Kharn the Betrayer
Weapon Skill 10Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a7/8:Leadership 10

Prince of Rage (Demon Prince)
Weapon Skill 10Balistic Skill 5Strength 6Toughness 6Wounds 5Initiative 5Attacks 8Leadership 10

Warlord (Chaos Lord)
Weapon Skill 8Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a5/6:Leadership 10

Blood Priest (Dark Apostle)
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a5/6:Leadership 10

Lord of Brass (Techmarine)
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Skull Surgeon (Apothecary)
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Exalted Berserker (Lone Wolf)
Weapon Skill 7Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a4/5:Leadership 10

Elites
Ravagers (Veteran Marauders) [May Be Upgraded to Terminators]
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Slaughterers (Veteran Berserkers) [May Be Upgraded to Assault Terminators]
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a4/5:Leadership 10

Bloodkine (Possessed Berserkers) [May be Upgraded to Possessed Terminators... ]
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 5Toughness 5Wounds 2Initiative 5:a4/5:Leadership 10

Bloodletters (don't occupy FOC)
Weapon Skill 5:bs-:Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 5Attacks 5Leadership 10

Troops
Marauders (CSM with MoK, close range options like flamers and meltas)
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a2/3:Leadership 10

Berserkers (can be given jump packs or bikes)
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Fast Attack
Warhawks (assault squad with MoK)
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a2/3:Leadership 10

Warhounds (bike squadron with MoK)
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 4:t4/5:Wounds 3Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Flesh Hounds (don't occupy FOC)
Weapon Skill 4:bs-:Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 5Attacks 3Leadership 10

Razorback Squadrons [Smile]

Slaughterfiend

Heavy Support
Destroyers (havocs with heavy bolters, heavy flamers, multi-meltas)
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 2Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Obliterators
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 6Strength 5Toughness 5Wounds 3Initiative 5:a3/4:Leadership 10

Berserker Dreadnought

Predator [Squadrons?]

Vindicator

Defiler

Land Raider

Land Raider Annihilator (Crusader with flamer and melta weapons)

Bloodthirster
Weapon Skill 10Balistic Skill 5Strength 8Toughness 8Wounds 6Initiative 6Attacks 8Leadership 10


Last edited by Col. Tartleton on Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:56 pm

I disagree, John. I think Khorne can appreciate a psyker who uses his powers to increase the potency of his body and weapons as opposed to standing back and shooting, making shields, trying to hide, etc.

I mean, isn't that essentially what Khorne's demons and his "demonically gifted" champions do? Pull strength from the warp and use demon weapons?
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:58 pm

Might as well throw mine in their, too Smile

HQ
Daemon Prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Champion (Lieutenant type character)
Greater Daemon of Khorne (Doesn't occupy FOC)
Chosen of Khorne (one per Lord taken)

Elites
Terminators
Frenzied Berzerkers (veteran berzerkers, filled with RAGE)
Possessed Berzerkers
Dreadnought
Berzerker Dreadnought

Troops
Berzerkers
Initiates (basically CSM with Mark of Khorne)
Lesser Daemons of Khorne (non FOC unit)

Transports
Rhino
Land Raider
Land Raider Slaughterer (chaosy Crusader)

Fast Attack
Bikers
Bloodwings (jump troops)
Chaos Hounds
Blood Spawn
Rampager (modified Rhino w/ Assault Ramp)

Heavy
Havocs
Defiler
Death Dealer (close combat oriented Defiler; from Epic)
Vindicator

Hm... I got a bit lazy with the names. I like many of your names (both of you).
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:03 pm

That's the other thing, Colonel. Judging by the stats you are posting, we're not going with a codex that fits the current mould, right?
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:08 pm

Right. This is the "Elite of the Elite of the Elite." Luckily for Guardsman Joe you will pay for it.

I mean who doesn't want to see Kharn solo an entire guard platoon?

I do.

10 Possessed Terminators? Lets leave this to Apocalypse.

Also be prepared for me monkeying around with weapon stats. Power Fist type weapons will strike at I.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:13 pm

Herald of the Lost wrote:
I disagree, John. I think Khorne can appreciate a psyker who uses his powers to increase the potency of his body and weapons as opposed to standing back and shooting, making shields, trying to hide, etc.

I mean, isn't that essentially what Khorne's demons and his "demonically gifted" champions do? Pull strength from the warp and use demon weapons?

To be honest, I can't really argue against your points. It is very much possible to use the warp as a brutal, close range weapon (which Khorne loves). As you say, his daemons/daemonkin use the warp -- hell, they're made of the stuff.

However, that has been the fluff for Khorne (in 40K and Fantasy) as far back as I can remember (1993 or so):

"... the Librarians of the Worldeaters Legion... where hunted down and slain by their Brother Marines as a bloody sacrifice to their lord Khorne, for the Chaos God of war hates all practitioners of the sorcerous arts."
--2nd Ed Chaos Codex, p 29

Though GW is famous for going back and forth on fluff, this is one thing that has stuck. It seems odd, since Slaanesh is his "opposite" and not Tzeentch (though they are rivals), but there it is. I can't rationalize, and can't even back it up with a good argument... It just *feels* wrong.

Ultimately, that's my opinion, and when it comes to it my *vote*. It's a group project, so if I get out voted, I want cry over it... well, maybe a little Crying or Very sad (j/k, btw)
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:17 pm

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS? A DEMOCRACY? I AM THE #1 FORUM MEMBER. I AM LAW!

*BANG*

Apologies. This is the third Herald android to override its programming this year. <_< >_>
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:19 pm

Okay, it seems we're going for an "amped up to 11" kind of codex, here Smile
I'm good with that, but I'll probably keep my own stuff out of it, as it is more in line with the current rules/codexes. Not saying I won't comment or contribute, I will. I just have to "broaden my parameters" a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:21 pm

Col. Tartleton wrote:


I mean who doesn't want to see Kharn solo an entire guard platoon?


Have you seen my Kharn on Warseer? Wouldn't take much to make him to where he can do that Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:07 pm

Warmaster_John wrote:
Col. Tartleton wrote:


I mean who doesn't want to see Kharn solo an entire guard platoon?


Have you seen my Kharn on Warseer? Wouldn't take much to make him to where he can do that Twisted Evil

Exactly. But in my interpretation rather then making Kharn "Kratos the God of War", he's just a head and shoulders above a large number of crazily lethal people. Its like the Argonauts. They can't all be Hercules but they can still be Jason or Castor or Pollux or Theseus or Meleager. Kharn may be "The Champion" of Khorne but the guys he hangs with are no push overs. Even the worst troops in the list are the average troops in a regular marine army. You can try to bulk up on them or you can tighten your belt and say "They're tough but I want to pit a dozen tooled out Beserkers against three hundred orks... and win.

Twisted Evil

Someone has to say it :This Is SPARTA:
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:20 pm

No, this is madness. But madness rules.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:59 pm

Late to the conversation.

I will start at the top and agree that there needs to be a general codex and a seperate codex atleast for the 4 chaos gods. I am also going to mention that there needs to be a general daemon codex also. So go for it reguarding 10+ diferent codexes. I do sugest breaking them up in to different topics though.

On to the topic of world eaters. Well firstly cult armies in general.
I feal Daemons, of all tiers, should count towards the FoC. They are fully part of the army and not somthing somewhat trivial as they are in the current codex.
Marines, Chosen, Raptors, Bikes and Havocs with built in marks.
Cult versions of Terminators and I liked the idea of Cult Posessed. I am thinking of Cult versions of Bikes also.
Things like Oblitirators should not be included or limited to a 0-1 choice.
All Compulsery Choices should be Cult.

Now whats all this nonsence about Khorne Psykers..... STOP IT! NOW!. hehe. Honestly though I like the idea of somthing that works like a psyker that is not actualy a psyher. Somthing that is a representation of Knorne with powers that can be triggered by units doing Khorne like deeds. Have a tally of modles killed. Every time he goes to use an ability roll a D6 and add as many kills from the tally as you like. If the result is above the sucess number then the ability goes off. Somthing like that.

Oh and YES! Herald of the Lost IS THE LAW! As I am GOD!
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:37 pm

I'm sure this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think daemons in the CSM codex should be as powerful as they are in the Daemon codex. They need to be better than they are now (I don't like genera-demons), with a lot more character, but the ones we do in the Daemon codex should be more powerful. 2 reasons for this:

1. Autonomy and uniqueness. Why play Daemons if you get the same units in CSM? Also, it feels like stealing the Daemon codexe's thunder. It would be like having Leman Russ tanks in your SM army. They work together, right? Suspect

2. Summoning; this is a very powerful ability if given to a powerful unit. If "lesser" daemons are as strong as their Daemon codex brethren, they will lay waste.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:57 pm

1 is why I didn't want them to occupy FOC slots. Forces you to take CSM units.

But I think we should keep the units the same between codices, albeit the Demon list giving them more options.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:03 pm

I agree and should have mentioned it before. Daemons in the Cult Codices should be that of the god they belong to and not generic. They also need to be summoned in to play.
I had a thought though, if it is not wanted that a daemon unit take up a slot then how about tying it to a coporial unit. Having only that unit summon them when they become available from reserves. Would add more to the chaos that is. Can't chose when or where the daemons will arive.

Generic and undivided lists would still have the current generic daemons or we could create some new ones for them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:15 pm

Well in regards to Daemons I think you should limit them to a sort of game mechanic for the regular CSM lists. What if Daemons are basically Neutral and its simply a matter of getting them to attack the enemy instead of you? It would certainly work for Khornate and Tzeentchian Daemons. Khorne cares not whence the blood flows and Tzeentch is a fickle God. You could also explain it away for Slaanesh as the Dark Prince is pleasure and pain as long as its excessive. Daemonettes would bless their summoners by torturing them to death...

I think this would be the best way to introduce them into the Legion lists. The only oddball is Nurgle because he's "nice" and I'm sure there could be a drawback for his men as well.

You might summon a host of bloodletters into the enemy but if they kill them there's a good chance those bloodletters will charge your men.

What about a mechanic where you exchange kill points or an equivalent for Daemons? X for a pack of Fleshhounds XX for a slaughter of Bloodletters XXX for a Bloodthirster?

If you're an expert your 8 Bloodsoaked Beserkers will get so stuck in that they're bleeding out daemons which begin to amass and you start getting some real nasty killing power. But then as you continue to win and the number of enemy units begins to fall the chance of your daemons turning against you (or even each other) rises.

Basically I'm imagining a chain reaction where your Marines summon Daemons based on their effectiveness in battle. More Kill Points-> More Daemons ->More Kill Points -> More Daemons-> Greater Daemon arrives -> Oh ****!

At which point he Decrees your Warlord is a pussy and kills him then the Daemons eat your army and in the end its a tie because both armies got wiped out... WE ARE CHAOS; CHAOS IS STRONG!

I mean these aren't lists for Tournament play because 40k isn't really a tournament game.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:36 pm

Col. Tartleton wrote:

What about a mechanic where you exchange kill points or an equivalent for Daemons? X for a pack of Fleshhounds XX for a slaughter of Bloodletters XXX for a Bloodthirster?

This is essentially the old 2nd ed mechanic for summoning daemons, where you earned summoning points based on certain actions (depending on which god's daemons you wanted to summon). It worked pretty well, but I actually prefer the newer method by comparison.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the turning on you, either. Game wise, it could cause some confusion and create a need for complicated mechanics, and could result in some people not using them. Fluff wise, chaos sorcerers are much too careful and smart to unleash such things without proper preparation. After all, if we are making them an uber-list, it would seem contradictory for them to be so careless. I think many Chaos Lords (especially from certain legions) would be too calculating and precise to have such a loose cannon in their midst, especially one that would most likely kill them when it's done.
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PostSubject: Re: The Horror! The Horror!   Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:42 pm

Idk, I feel like Daemons should be risky. But they wouldn't cost toward your points. What if Sorocerors could control a pack of Daemons for a spell?

For Example: A Sorceror Lord can use two psychic powers or control one unit of Daemons and one psychic power or two units of Daemons.

Ahriman could control 3 units of Daemons. And you wouldn't need to hold them under control all the time, you could throw them into a unit and if they're stuck in combat you'd be free to use that power. However if you have unaccounted for Daemons due to carelessness they run amok and kill everyone. So it would be up to the player whether or not his demons were shackled.

I like this idea. It would make sorcerers unique and competitive. But you'd always be able to try to Daemon Bomb the enemy and not get back-stabbed by your daemonic allies. You're just running the risk.

Plus there is a cool imagery of a Ahriman sending forth hordes of flamers and just ****ing **** up. Just templates up the whazoo.
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