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 Comparative Statistics

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Herald of the Lost
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PostSubject: Comparative Statistics   Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:27 pm

A request for the lot of you. Smile

Let's assume that this is a basic profile for a basic Imperial Guardsman.

Weapon Skill 3Balistic Skill 3Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 3Attacks 1Leadership 6

Now let's assume that this is a basic profile for a basic Space Marine

Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 5Attacks 2Leadership 8

If either of those two assumptions are too much for you, please do not precede!

For those of you still with me, thank you. Wink

Please give me your opinion on statlines for the following individual models. Disregard all special rules, weapons, armor, equipment, etc. I'm talking basic statlines here. Don't just raise or lower statistics to maintain the status quo. Give me what you think is an accurate statline to represent the warrior's physical abilities. Also, it would be great if you could explain your reasoning.

Ork Slugga/Shoota Boy
Ork Skar Boy

Tyanid Termagaunt
Tyranid Genestealer

Tau Fire Warrior
Kroot Carnivore

Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior
Dark Eldar Incubus

Craftworld Eldar Defender Guardian
Craftworld Eldar Dire Avenger

Chaos Demon Bloodletter
Chaos Demon Bloodreaper

Necron Warrior
Necron Immortal

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Col. Tartleton
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:35 pm

Give that Marine a second wound and LD 10 and you've sold me. Twisted Evil

Ork Slugga/Shoota Boy
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 2 3 4 1 3 1/2 6
Basically your average Boy should beat a Guardsman one on one but should be able to be smacked down by marines or anyone cool. Orks use the weight of numbers to win. A marine should be tearing through these guys. Marines were basically designed to fight orks. They're bigger, stronger, better armed, better armored, and more skilled and it really shows. Orks have furious charge in their favor and that's it. You catch them off guard and you rip them to pieces.

Ork Skar Boy
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 2 3 4 1 3 1/2 7
Skar Boyz are basically regular boyz although they'd have a bit more teef to their name and a few more scars (obviously) as such they can have some better gear. 5+ save and rending to show these guys don't screw around.

Tyranid Termagaunt
WS BS S T W I A Ld
2 2 2 3 1 1 3
These are something Guard can beat up on. Gaunts should be weak. They're ants. But they're without number. I want to see the squad size up to 50 at least, maybe a hundred. They're the tide of war. A 50 point Marine's going to be forced to fight his way through a dozen just to earn his points.

Tyranid Genestealer
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 - 3 3 1 5 4 7
These guys are fragile, but their talons rend and they've got a bunch of attacks and they should pull down heavy infantry if they can catch them in terrain. The only time you should be loading up on GSs is in a cover heavy match. You do that and you'll tear through terminators. But if they're in the open you may as well use gaunts. Stealers are a specialized unit. You're looking at furious charge, infiltrate, and move through cover.

Tau Fire Warrior
WS BS S T W I A Ld
2 4 3 3 1 3 1 8
Tau are basically storm troopers. A nasty gun, solid armor, and a generally better guard statline. They're basically as good as their gun and their transport.

Kroot Carnivore
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 1 4 2/3 7
Kroot are basically the ultimate light infantry. Relatively good at fighting in melee and range, and great at moving around undetected. You load these guys up with their built in Scout, Infiltrate, Stealth, and Move Through Cover. They're in your base killing your dudes. The sort of guys Catachans respect and loathe.

Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior
WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 3 3 1 5 2/3 9
This guy is all finesse. He can dance toe to toe with marines because his speed makes him a match for them even if he lacks the strength or toughness or wounds or armor to better them he's still got a fighting chance and once he's got his vampire on they're going to be on their backfoot as he starts turning his sword dance into a furious storm of attacks.

Dark Eldar Incubus
WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 5 3 3 1 5 3 10
These guys are pretty tough cookies. They're fragile like any of their kin but these guys shine even better in combat. Their power weapons mixed with their superior stats. They'll outfight a marine and tear through anything less unless of course you can kill them with shooting.

Craftworld Eldar Defender Guardian
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Better then a human by the inherent gift of being more than human. Top notch medium ranged gun play and not much else. Guardians are best served by being mounted up in a wave serpent and armed with some heavy weapons.

Craftworld Eldar Dire Avenger
WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 3 3 1 5 2 9
Avengers are pretty much the same stats as Kabal Warriors. They aren't ninjas, they're disciplined marksmen. Their guns are murderous and tear through infantry and worry lighter vehicles and rear armor.

Chaos Demon Bloodletter
WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 - 5 4 1 4 3 10
Basically they're all combat with a big old sword. Not particularly tough but they've got an invulnerable save and powerweapon and can call upon unlimited numbers. Daemons should have some sort of Without Number thing where an area of board edge is a warphole and daemons pour through to replace the fallen.

Chaos Demon Bloodreaper
WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 - 5 6 3 4 5 10
(But... that's a monstrous creature stat line affraid )
Like their cousins Bloodletters, Reapers are identical but improved Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds to justify the mounts additions.

Necron Warrior
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 4 1 4 2 10
Here you see a basic Necron. Rather tough, but ultimately his worth is his weaponry and his special rules. Deepstriking abilities, Feel No Pain, and Relentless are Necron attributes that make them shine. Ideally they're comparable to Eldar in their power if not technique. Necrons are more rounded while Eldar are a glass hammer. With luck Eldar infantry will cut them down. With luck the Necrons will shrug it all off. It matches up roughly.

Necron Immortal
WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 5 5 1 4 2 10
Now you're getting into the tough guys. Bigger guns, more strength, more toughness. I figure 4s for BS and WS are justified in everything that isn't a Lord. 4 is the standard of Necron programming. Lords are superior because they're more self controlled. These guys are all about the huge gun they tote around.




Last edited by Col. Tartleton on Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Basic Reasoning added.)
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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:57 am

Ork Slugga/Shoota Boy
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 2Strength 3Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 3Attacks 2Leadership 7Armour Save of 6+

Ork Skar Boy
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 2Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 3Attacks 2Leadership 7Armour Save of 6+

Ork Nob (as I feel it needs a comparison)
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 2Strength 4Toughness 5Wounds 1Initiative 4Attacks 3Leadership 8Armour Save of 6+
I feel that ork resiliance chould come in the form of toughness over additional wounds.

Tyanid Termagaunt
Weapon Skill 3Balistic Skill 3Strength 4Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 4Attacks 1Leadership 5Armour Save of 6+
should beable to up any stat you want for a cost.

Tyranid Genestealer
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 0Strength 5Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 7Attacks 3Leadership 9Armour Save of 5+

Tau Fire Warrior
Weapon Skill 1Balistic Skill 3Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 2Attacks 1Leadership 7Armour Save of 4+
I feel Tau realy do not fight CCW. They should have some special rule to fire while in CCW at their engaged enemy.

Kroot Carnivore
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 3Strength 4Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 4Attacks 1Leadership 7Armour Save of -
I am not sure how I feel on giving kroot armour. It seams pointless to me.

Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 4Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 6Attacks 1Leadership 8Armour Save of 5+
Should beable to match a Marine in Combat.

Dark Eldar Wych
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 3Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 6Attacks 2Leadership 8Armour Save of 5+
Should be better than a marine in combat.

Dark Eldar Incubus
Weapon Skill 5Balistic Skill 4Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 6Attacks 1Leadership 9Armour Save of 3+

Craftworld Eldar Guardian
Weapon Skill 3Balistic Skill 3Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 5Attacks 1Leadership 8Armour Save of 5+

Craftworld Eldar Dire Avenger
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 5Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 6Attacks 1Leadership 9Armour Save of 4+

Chaos Demon Bloodletter
Chaos Demon Bloodreaper
(No real opinion on daemons)

Necron Warrior
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 4Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 4Attacks 1Leadership 10Armour Save of 3+

Necron Immortal
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 4Strength 4Toughness 5Wounds 1Initiative 4Attacks 1Leadership 10Armour Save of 3+

Now for some other basic unit statlines missed.

Battle Sister
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 4Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 4Attacks 1Leadership 8Armour Save of 3+
better than Guardsmen and not quite a marine. Yet still a girl.

Grey Knight
Weapon Skill 6Balistic Skill 5Strength 4Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 6Attacks 2Leadership 10Armour Save of 2+
Better than you adverage marine.

Squat
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 4Strength 3Toughness 4Wounds 1Initiative 3Attacks 1Leadership 9Armour Save of 3+
I think that is a good basic stat line for a starting point with the race.

Eldar Exodite
Weapon Skill 4Balistic Skill 4Strength 3Toughness 3Wounds 1Initiative 6Attacks 1Leadership 8Armour Save of 5+
Better than a guardian but worst than a Kabalite warrior.
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:02 pm

Craftworld Eldar Guardian - same as Dwiblie's but with an armour save of 4+

Dwane, I feel that Fire Warriors are fine as they are, stats-wise. I think a rule to fire in CC would just be too complicated and possibly overpowered in the current ruleset.
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Hellebore
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:56 am

What kind of dice are you using? Or resolution method? Because S3 vs S5 is very different on a D6 than it is on a D10.

For rules using a D10 following the same matrix table stat vs stat I produced the following:

EDIT:

Can't attach any documents.


Type M WS BS S T W I A Ld Armour
Conscript 4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 4 2
Guardsman 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 3
Squad Sergeant 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 7 3
Veteran guardsman 4 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 3
Veteran sergeant 4 4 4 3 3 1 3 2 7 3
Storm Trooper 4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 7 5
Storm Veteran 4 4 4 3 3 1 4 2 7 5
Ogryn 5 4 3 6 5 3 3 2 7 3
Ratling 5 2 4 2 2 1 5 1 4 3
Enginseer 4 3 4 3 4 1 3 1 7 6
Lieutenant 4 4 4 3 3 2 5 2 7 3
Captain 4 5 5 3 3 2 5 3 8 3
Colonel 4 5 5 3 3 3 5 3 9 3

Type M WS BS S T W I A Ld Armour
Clanguard 3 3 3 4 4 1 2 1 8 4
Oathkeeper 3 3 3 4 4 1 3 2 8 4
Embittered 3 3 2 4 4 1 2 2 9 1
Berserker 3 3 2 4 4 1 3 3 9 1
Holdguard 3 4 4 4 4 1 3 1 8 5
Holdguard Veteran 3 5 5 4 4 1 3 2 8 5
Hearthguard 3 5 5 4 4 1 4 2 8 5
Custodian 3 6 5 4 4 2 4 3 8 5
Warden 3 6 6 4 4 2 4 3 9 5
Hold Warden 3 6 6 4 4 3 5 3 9 5
Living Ancestor 2 5 5 3 5 2 2 1 9 5
Exo Holdguard 4 4 4 5 5 2 3 2 8 8
Exo Hearthguard 4 5 5 5 5 2 4 2 8 8

Type M WS BS S T W I A Ld Armour
Scout 4 3 3 4 4 1 4 1 7 5
Scout Sergeant 4 4 4 5 5 1 4 2 8 5
Marine 4 4 4 5 5 1 4 1 7 6
Squad Sergeant 4 4 4 5 5 1 4 2 8 6
Veteran 4 4 5 5 5 1 5 2 8 6
Assault Veteran 4 5 4 5 5 1 5 2 8 6
Terminator 4 5 5 5 5 2 5 2 8 8
Apothecary 4 5 5 5 5 1 4 2 7 6
Techmarine 4 5 5 5 5 1 4 1 7 7
Chaplain 4 5 5 5 5 2 5 2 10 6
Librarian 4 5 5 5 5 2 6 2 9 6
Captain 4 6 6 5 5 3 6 3 9 6
Master 4 6 6 5 5 3 6 4 10 6









Type M WS BS S T W I A Ld Armour
Snotlings 4 2 0 2 2 3 3 3 3 0
Grot 5 2 3 2 3 1 3 1 4 1
Ork 4 3 2 4 4 1 2 1 6 2
Scarboy 4 4 2 5 4 1 2 2 6 2
Nob 4 5 3 5 5 2 3 3 7 3
Mek 4 4 3 4 4 2 3 2 6 3
Big Mek 4 5 4 5 5 3 4 3 7 4
Dok 4 4 2 4 4 2 3 2 6 3
Painboss 4 5 3 5 5 3 4 3 7 3
Warboss 5 6 4 6 6 4 5 4 8 3

Type M WS BS S T W I A Ld Armour
Guardian 5 3 3 3 2 1 4 1 7 5
Storm Guardian 5 4 3 3 2 1 4 1 7 5
Defender Guardian 5 3 4 3 2 1 4 1 7 5
Ranger 5 3 4 3 2 1 5 1 7 4
Pathfinder 5 4 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 4
Dire Avenger 5 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 6
Implacable Avenger 5 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 6
Striking Scorpion 5 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 7
Stalking Scorpion 5 6 5 3 2 1 6 1 8 7
Howling Banshee 6 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 6
Shrieking Banshee 6 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 6
Fire Dragon 5 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 6
Inferno Dragon 5 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 6
Swooping Hawk 6 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 6
Striking Hawk 6 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 6
Dark Reaper 4 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 7
Shadow Reaper 4 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 7
Warp Spider 5 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 7
Void Spider 5 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 7
Shining spear 5 5 5 3 2 1 5 1 8 6
Blazing spear 5 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 6
Exarch 6 7 7 4 3 2 7 2 9 7
Exarch Lord 6 7 7 5 4 2 8 3 9 7
Phoenix Thane 7 8 8 5 5 3 9 4 10 8
Phoenix Lord 7 9 9 6 6 4 10 5 10 8
Warlock 5 6 6 3 2 1 6 1 8 5
Bonesinger 5 4 4 3 2 1 5 1 8 6
Farseer 4 5 5 3 4 3 5 2 10 5
Autarch 5 6 6 3 2 2 7 3 9 6
Wraithguard 4 4 4 6 6 2 3 1 10 6
Wraithlord 7 5 5 10 9 3 4 3 10 8
Avatar 8 10 10 8 8 6 9 6 10 8

Type M WS BS S T W I A Ld Armour
Harlequin 7 6 6 3 2 1 7 2 8 4
Troubadour 7 7 7 3 2 1 8 3 9 4
Death Jester 6 6 8 3 2 1 6 2 9 6
Shadow seer 7 6 6 3 2 1 7 3 9 4
High Avatar 7 8 8 3 2 2 9 3 10 4
Solitaire 9 10 10 3 2 2 10 4 - 4









Dark Eldar Warrior 5 5 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 4
Sybarite 5 5 4 3 3 1 6 2 9 4
Wych 6 6 4 3 3 1 6 2 8 3
Succubus 6 6 4 3 3 1 7 3 9 3
Mandrake 5 5 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 4
Shade 5 5 4 3 3 1 6 2 9 4
Incubi 5 6 5 3 3 1 6 2 9 6
Incubi Master 5 7 6 4 3 2 7 3 10 6
Haemonculus 4 4 4 3 4 2 5 2 10 5
Grotesque 4 3 0 4 4 2 3 1 10 5
Dracon 5 6 6 3 3 1 7 3 9 6
Archon 5 7 7 3 3 2 8 4 10 6
Dracite 6 7 4 3 3 1 8 3 9 4
Archite 6 8 4 3 3 2 8 4 10 4
Warp Beast 8 5 0 4 4 1 5 2 6 2
Talos 7 5 4 7 7 4 5 5 10 7








Ripper 5 3 3 3 3 4 5 4 10 1
Termagaunt 5 3 3 3 3 1 4 1 5 2
Hormagaunt 6 4 0 4 3 1 5 1 5 2
Genestealer 6 6 0 5 4 1 6 2 10 3
Broodlord 6 7 0 6 5 2 7 3 10 4
Patriarch 5 5 0 5 5 3 5 3 10 5
Tyranid Warrior 5 5 3 5 5 3 5 2 10 4
Hive Tyrant 6 7 4 7 7 4 5 4 10 6
Carnifex 6 6 3 9 7 5 3 4 10 7
Lictor 7 8 0 6 5 4 7 3 10 5
Zoanthrope 6 3 6 4 6 2 3 1 10 6
Biovore 4 4 4 5 5 2 3 2 10 5
Tyrant Guard 5 5 0 6 6 2 4 2 10 6


Fire Warrior 4 2 3(4) 3 3 1 2 1 7 4
Veteran Fire Warrior 4 2 4(5) 3 3 1 2 1 8 4
Crisis 5 2 4(5) 5 5 2 2 1 8 6
Broadside 3 2 4(5) 5 5 3 2 1 8 7
Stealth 6 2 4(5) 4 4 2 2 1 8 5
Shas’El 5 3 5(6) 5 5 3 3 2 9 6
Shas’O 5 4 6(7) 5 5 4 4 3 10 6


Kroot 5 4 3 4 3 1 4 1 7 2
Hound 6 4 0 4 3 1 5 2 5 2
Ox 5 3 3 5 4 2 3 2 5 3
Shaper 5 5 4 4 3 2 5 2 8 3
Master Shaper 5 6 5 4 3 3 6 3 9 3
Great Knarloc 6 4 0 6 5 4 3 3 5 4

Scarab swarm 6 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 10 4
Necron 3 4 4 5 6 1 2 1 10 6
Immortal 3 5 5 6 7 1 2 1 10 7
Flayed One 4 5 0 5 5 1 4 2 10 5
Wraith 7 6 0 6 5 1 5 3 10 5
Pariah 4 5 5 6 6 2 3 2 10 7
Necron Lord 4 5 5 6 7 4 4 3 10 7
Tomb Spyder 6 4 4 8 8 3 2 2 10 8

Bloodletter 5 6 3 4 4 1 5 1 10 2
Daemonette 6 5 3 4 3 1 6 2 10 1
Plague Bearer 4 4 3 4 5 1 3 1 10 3
Pink Horror 5 3 4 3 3 2 4 1 10 2
Flesh Hound 7 5 0 5 4 1 5 2 10 2
Steed of Slannesh 10 4 0 3 3 1 6 2 10 1
Nurglings 3 3 2 3 4 3 3 3 10 3
Screamers 10 3 0 4 4 1 4 1 10 2
Juggernaut 7 4 0 5 5 2 3 2 10 4
Flamer of Tzeentch 6 3 4 5 4 2 4 1 10 2
Fiend of Slannesh 7 5 0 5 4 3 6 3 10 2
Beast of Nurgle 5 3 0 6 6 3 2 D5 10 3
Herald of Khorne 5 7 4 5 4 2 6 2 10 3
Herald of Slannesh 6 6 4 4 4 2 7 4 10 2
Herald of Nurgle 4 5 4 4 6 2 4 2 10 4
Herald of Tzeentch 5 4 5 4 4 2 5 2 10 3
Bloodthirster 8 10 10 10 8 6 8 8 10 6
Keeper of Secrets 10 8 8 8 8 6 10 6 10 3
Great Unclean One 6 6 6 9 10 10 4 4 10 5
Lord of Change 8 7 10 8 8 6 6 5 10 4
Prince of Khorne 6 8 5 6 5 3 7 3 10 4
Prince of Slannesh 7 7 5 5 4 3 8 5 10 3
Prince of Nurgle 5 6 5 5 7 4 4 3 10 5
Prince of Tzeentch 6 5 6 5 4 3 6 3 10 4
Fury 5 4 0 4 4 1 4 1 8 -





Hellebore
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:42 am

Damn, Hellebore! A little restraint!

I kid. Smile

I'm working with the D6 system, though many of your points are getting across.
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:56 pm

Are you using a standard BS5=2+ to hit as well? Because having a really high chance to hit makes it hard to produce a good spread of BS from 1 to 10.

the D6 effectively only has two progressions on either side of 50%. So anything with 2pts lower or 2pts higher is the maximum variation you can get using the GW matrix table.

With a D10 there are effectively 4 variations on either side. So S5 vs T3 requires a 4+ to wound, S5 vs S5 is a 6+ to wound, S5 vs T7 is an 8+ to wound and so on.

I also use an opposed roll for BS so that a BS of 10 actually means something.

Bascially I came up with the stats above only because I changed to a D10. On a d6 you have to constrain your stat spread far more, which for me hindered trying to represent the armies more 'accurately' in terms of stat spread.

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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:43 pm

Hellebore wrote:
Are you using a standard BS5=2+ to hit as well? Because having a really high chance to hit makes it hard to produce a good spread of BS from 1 to 10.

the D6 effectively only has two progressions on either side of 50%. So anything with 2pts lower or 2pts higher is the maximum variation you can get using the GW matrix table.

With a D10 there are effectively 4 variations on either side. So S5 vs T3 requires a 4+ to wound, S5 vs S5 is a 6+ to wound, S5 vs T7 is an 8+ to wound and so on.

I also use an opposed roll for BS so that a BS of 10 actually means something.

Bascially I came up with the stats above only because I changed to a D10. On a d6 you have to constrain your stat spread far more, which for me hindered trying to represent the armies more 'accurately' in terms of stat spread.

Hellebore

This thread is meant purely for my fandex efforts using the existing ruleset.

However, over in the Xth edition thread, I think we should be considering a D10 system. You should post your mechanics over there.
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:05 pm

I would realy like to see 2 eds come out of all this. The standard fix and an Advanced Warhammer 40,000 that uses a d10 system and more complicated rules.

But I agree that this thread is to do with making marines in current rules set more inline with what they should be compaired to a normal soldier, and there for some units need to be inhanced a little so that they are also inline with their comparison to a marine.
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PostSubject: Re: Comparative Statistics   Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:57 pm

Herald of the Lost wrote:

This thread is meant purely for my fandex efforts using the existing ruleset.

However, over in the Xth edition thread, I think we should be considering a D10 system. You should post your mechanics over there.

Well I mention it mainly because the dice will constrain what kind of stat spread you can get away with. The ones I listed really only work in a D10 or dice larger than a D6.

Putting basic unit stats too far apart in a D6 and you make things almost impossible to wound or can't wound to pretty much instantly dead when you hit them.

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