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 Rapid Fire!!!

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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Rapid Fire!!!   Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:01 pm

Somthing that has been siting on my mind for a little while now and I have never realy vented it anyware. I feel rapid fire needs yet another mild change.

I would like to see Rapid Fire #

Everything with Rapid Fire now would be considered Rapid Fire 1.

How this would work is that the number is the shots at max range. With in 12" you get an additional shot. All other rules are the same as now reguarding moving and assulting.

I can think of 2 examples where this would help and I am sure we can come up with more.

Sonic Blaster: Rng 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 2

First Rank Fire, Sencond Rank Fire: All Lasguns in the unit become Rapid Fire 2 for this Shooting phase. (easely gets rid of the confusion of penal leagon that some people have)

So anyway thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:06 pm

I like it, but I'd tweak the mechanic slightly to keep the focus on assault rifle/sub machine gun.

So Rapid Fire X means you can shoot one shot at maximum range or X times at up to 12".

Weapons that are currently listed as "Rapid Fire" count as Rapid Fire 2.

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Col. Tartleton
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:29 am

Idk, I think Rapid Fire is rather silly as is. Its almost like Heavy 1 at full range vs Assault 2 at (generally) half range. I'm not a fan. We've already got Heavy and Assault Weapons. I feel like it could be done away with and not really hurt the game. A Bolter becomes Assault 2 R24 and a Pulse Rifle because Heavy 2 R30. Its kind of an unneeded complication. Some Rapid Fire Weapons are more sedentary but most are basically assault weapons. A lasgun would be fine as Assault with a range of 24. Its not like Guard will do much in the assault phase. Plus the assault allows them to backpedal during movement or advance while firing. Much more fluffy imo. The Tau would be heavy because their shooting aesthetic is as a sniper.
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yabba
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:25 am

I am quite happy with the rapid fire concept, although I think some weapons need tweaking. The rapid fire concept does work and fits nicely inbetween assault and heavy weapons.

What I don't agree with is that you can't assault if you have fired a rapid fire weapon - it should be you can't assault because you have rapid fired.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:15 pm

Col. Tartleton wrote:
Idk, I think Rapid Fire is rather silly as is. Its almost like Heavy 1 at full range vs Assault 2 at (generally) half range. I'm not a fan. We've already got Heavy and Assault Weapons. I feel like it could be done away with and not really hurt the game. A Bolter becomes Assault 2 R24 and a Pulse Rifle because Heavy 2 R30. Its kind of an unneeded complication. Some Rapid Fire Weapons are more sedentary but most are basically assault weapons. A lasgun would be fine as Assault with a range of 24. Its not like Guard will do much in the assault phase. Plus the assault allows them to backpedal during movement or advance while firing. Much more fluffy imo. The Tau would be heavy because their shooting aesthetic is as a sniper.

The imbalance potentially comes in being able to put all those shots that far down range. If we go that route, I recommend dropping all Rapid Fire weapons down 6" in range.
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Lanrak
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:45 pm

Hi folks.
I think the real problem is the artificial classification of weapon firing modes in 40k.
They are very restrictive, and tend to lead to abstract arguments about what each actualy realy meant to represent.

I would like to see.
Small Arms ,(rifles pistols and SMG type weapons carried by most infantry uinits.)
Support weapons.(Specialised weapons that are man portable.)
Fire support weapons.(Weapons that can not move and fire.)

All ranged weapons (except fire support)fire X shots at 'effective range' .
X -1 shots at 'maximum range' if the unit remains stationary.(To represent a aimed shots .)
Weapons can fire 'X -1 'shots at 'effective range' and still assault.

Fire support weapons only fire X shots at max range if they are stationary.They can not fire at all if the unit moves.

Weapond classification depends upon the unit carrying it.
A heavy bolter is a Fire Support Weapon when carried by an IG squad for example ,but a support weapon when carried on a Leman Russ for example.

So a Boltgun
Effective range 12" Max range 24" shots 2.
So can fire 2 shots up to 12" or 1 shot up to 12" and assault, or one shot up to 24" if unit remains stationary.

Weapons would need ranges and number of shots adjusting a bit.
But it would let effective ranges and maximum ranges be adjustble , to allow more variation.

Just an idea for an alternative that allows more variation in range and effect with fewer rules to remember.

TTFN
Lanrak.







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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:19 pm

Two ideas I am working with here.

yabba wrote:
I am quite happy with the rapid fire concept, although I think some weapons need tweaking. The rapid fire concept does work and fits nicely inbetween assault and heavy weapons.

What I don't agree with is that you can't assault if you have fired a rapid fire weapon - it should be you can't assault because you have rapid fired.

Using my examples above.
Are you saying if you fire one shot you can assult? If so at what range?
Or
Are you saying that if you do not fire long range or add the extra shot at short range you can assult?

Lanraks Idea is also an interesting one and I would like to put a twist on it.

Weapons would have a range, an increment and a number of shots

Firing with in range means you can assult after.

For each increment or part there of added to the range of the shot would reduce one fro the total shots.

Moving would reduce one from the total shots.

Bolter Rng 12" Inc 12" Shots 2
Shuriken Catapult Rng 12" Inc 6" Shots 3
Heavy Bolter Rng 24" Inc 12" Shots 4
Missile Launcher Rng 48" Inc - Shots 1

While Lanreks Idea is interesting I still feel sticking to the system we have with a few adjustments is best.
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yabba
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:47 am

Dwane Diblie wrote:
Two ideas I am working with here.

yabba wrote:
I am quite happy with the rapid fire concept, although I think some weapons need tweaking. The rapid fire concept does work and fits nicely inbetween assault and heavy weapons.

What I don't agree with is that you can't assault if you have fired a rapid fire weapon - it should be you can't assault because you have rapid fired.

Using my examples above.
Are you saying if you fire one shot you can assult? If so at what range?
Or
Are you saying that if you do not fire long range or add the extra shot at short range you can assult?
At the moment I think the rules are you cannot assault if you fire a rapid fire weapon. In addition I believe that if you shoot a unit, if you then choose to assault you can only assault that same unit.

Therefore, for me, you should be able to fire 1 shot from a rapid fire weapon (meaning you haven't rapid fired) at a unit you intend to assault. By default that range will be 6"
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Lanrak
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:52 am

Hi Dwane.
I realise there is the 'slight tweeks to the current rules ' ideas.
And the 'what if we did a complete re-write' ideas.

As I am not as well versed with the current 40k rules as most on these forums.
Ill just post up some alternative ideas.And you can decide what camp they fall into. Wink


TTFN
Lanrak.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:50 pm

Building on Dwane's original idea:
Rapid fire weapons have two numbers ( ie Rapid Fire 1/2 for a Bolter), the first is how many shots they receive at 12", the second is how many they receive at max range. If they fire at max range, they count as firing a Heavy weapon, otherwise they are Assault.
This would open up for more differentiation between RF weapons and different combos (making a Rapid Fire 2/3, or 3/4, etc). Assault or Heavy guns, like the splinter cannon, could fall into this category, too, becoming Rapid Fire 4/6.
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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:43 pm

Yeah the addition of the current Splinter Cannon dose throw a little spanner in to the rule. I like your idea WM John.

EDIT:
Or on a similar note. Remove the all weapon fire rates from the rules all togeather. Instead all weapons would have a new Shots stat using Johns layout. Some examples.

Bolter Rng 12"/24" S4 AP5 Shots 2/1
Shuriken Catapult Rng 12" S4 AP5 Shots 2/-
Heavy Bolter Rng 36" S5 AP4 Shots -/3

Too complicated?


Last edited by Dwane Diblie on Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Got idea after hitting send.)
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Hellebore
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:06 pm

This is a problem invented when 3rd ed replaced 2nd ed. Because in the post 3rd ed environment, assault is an additional move you can perform in a separate phase.

In my rules I just made rapid fire like assault weapons, except that rapid fire isn't quite as good:

Assault: may fire the number of shots indicated up to maximum range
Rapid fire: may fire one shot up to maximum range and the number indicated if standing still

So rapid fire weapons are basically a type of assault weapon that can only fire its maximum number of shots if the firer gives up their movement.

Although in my rules its described in terms of actions.

Anyway, the reason for the problem I mentioned previously is that in 2nd ed, you could fire up to max range. But the enemy could double their movement whether in assault range or not.

So unlike now where an assault 24" weapon could allow you to move 6" backward and fire whilst they moved 6" forward to assault (now with the random d6 run), you could move 4" backward for a human, shoot once and the enemy could move 8" toward you.

So you would rarely get the run away shooting you can get with the current system.

Because that extra 6" assault move is only doable if in range. They allowed the run move precisely to fix this problem but now you can get 18" charge ranges on infantry which when compared to the 12" full move of a tank is silly.

Having the short range on most guns was just to prevent this and why the shuriken catapult halved in range because it's a basic infantry weapon and having an assault2 24" infantry weapon like that within the context of the 3rd ed+ rules just wouldn't have worked unless they cost a lot.

Now they've just patched it with the run move.

But imo rapid fire should look like the above. None of this changing ranges malarky just changing number of shots instead...Razz

Hellebore
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:13 pm

I think we really need to define what a rapid fire weapon is. Is it an assault rifle style weapon? Is it a submachine gun style weapon? I think it used to be both, but now the submachine gun style weapons have been changed to assault weapons and given shorter ranges.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:15 pm

Also, are we talking changing rapid fire for this new edition or for the existing game?

If the former, we need to establish movement and how that limits shooting in general before we start creating exceptions.
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Dwane Diblie
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:52 pm

I intended it to be a fix to the current rule that allowed other weapons that worked similarly but with more shots. Things like the sonic blaster. But it has gotten a little out of control for that to still be the point. That being said I like where it is going. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:20 am

Dwane Diblie wrote:
Yeah the addition of the current Splinter Cannon dose throw a little spanner in to the rule. I like your idea WM John.

EDIT:
Or on a similar note. Remove the all weapon fire rates from the rules all togeather. Instead all weapons would have a new Shots stat using Johns layout. Some examples.

Bolter Rng 12"/24" S4 AP5 Shots 2/1
Shuriken Catapult Rng 12" S4 AP5 Shots 2/-
Heavy Bolter Rng 36" S5 AP4 Shots -/3

Too complicated?

I like this very much. I don't think it's too complicated, and it would eliminate the need for weapon classifications (Assault, Heavy, and Rapid Fire). You'd still need to mention things like Pistol and Ordnance.
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Col. Tartleton
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid Fire!!!   Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:38 pm

How about the guns have a given number of shots. If you move and do shooting -1 BS. Then allow shooting in combat as a legitimate move but use WS for shooting (automatic -1BS for having moved if you're assaulting, no modifier for receiving a charge or using certain weapons like pistols or True Grit type stuff.) Then make CC special weapons more killy to compensate.

Strike at I powerfists, chainfists, and thunderhammers etc.

A unit with a meltagun should be comparable to a Powerfist. Although a powerfist is superior in CC because it will have multiple attacks most likely and doesn't have modifiers against it. The trade off is that the Meltagun has a ranged attack.

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